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Re: [Freeflight] was Brain damage?" Now Yes or No.

 I'm going to answer here.
1) Jim, you are asking for a black and white answer, if you want honesty
then there is no such creature. You also have to define 'outside' flight.
There are many diff ways of flying your bird outside, from the European
manner of open aviaries and completely free birds, to very rigidly
structured point A to point B flights.
   a) Yes Joe does think older birds can be flown outside, safely. Not 'at
liberty' for ANY bird, young or old. He has repeatedly stated that  he is
not personally willing to put any bird, no matter WHAT age, at that kind of
risk. And yes more freedom does involve more risk, period, for birds, for
ppl, for life in general.

  Now, since we have already established that on a personal level Jim,
Chris, Rex, and some others out there are willing to allow their birds extra
freedom while trying to train them to survive it, but Joe is not, I can not
and do not understand this constant confrontational ism. It's simple,
different strokes for different folks.  This is not brain surgery .

Jim, you continue, from where I'm sitting, to try and get Joe to say that
yes any bird can be flown the way YOU fly your birds. He's not going to say
it because he disagrees with the way you fly your birds. For him,
personally, there is to much risk involved. Period. That does not mean that
he is attacking the way you fly he's simply stating he does not agree with
it for himself, there is, and I reiterate, TO MUCH RISK OF A LOST OR KILLED
BIRD, for him to be comfortable with.

  Now, restating your question in a manner that is logical,
Joe can an older bird be flown if the owner / trainer follows all of the
steps and protocols of the training system you personally use?
Answer: Yes they can.
Period. End of debate.

Now from a pet owners perspective my  2 cents worth.
Rather than say no older birds can safely (safely is the key word here
folks)  be flown Joe's system is very concisely laid out, and should maybe
be renamed "The Dummies Guide to Free flighted Parrots". There is no what's,
if's, and's, or maybe's, and if you have any further questions Joe answers
them immediately.  Does he need to work on his communication skills? Well
yeah a little. But from the perspective of getting your bird outside SAFELY
and in the air I think most devoted parrots owners will learn to live with
his bluntness.
I do not understand the attitude that I've seen displayed on this list
regarding him charging a fee for his on-line class. Chris makes money off of
bird shows, what's the damned diff? For the kind of personal attention to
detail you get FROM JOE he should be charging a hell of a lot more. Time is
money and Joe is willing to take HIS time and help ppl that have no training
background train their birds. If the ppl decide at a later date that
freeflight is not for them then at least they still have a bird at the end
of the day  to send back to the house.
   If you honestly want to know how Joe does it, then join his next class,
which I believe is starting soon, with an open mind, not with an eye to
stirring up crap.
   Quit asking questions that are in no way pertinent to the way Joe
proposes flying birds outside. People are allowed to agree to disagree you
know.

On 2/2/06, jd021357@MNstK2Eamm_DDW7JLPe_faBWtLKFifGCayZ1ODsXpeZUSnMlfSd0kQT4bKFpzp2q3OZidsn_mj9ObiI.yahoo.invalid <jd021357@MNstK2Eamm_DDW7JLPe_faBWtLKFifGCayZ1ODsXpeZUSnMlfSd0kQT4bKFpzp2q3OZidsn_mj9ObiI.yahoo.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 2/2/2006 8:20:02 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
> monster_quentin@cC5ojDinLuiUIA__QZo-O_7yIRZT1pbPKz2f-bOpHoQV8tel6-i8DIKnUlIlbCv3Mjt13bODLRlaIAkvEuwlvNo.yahoo.invalid writes:
>
> And  please stop treating newbies like we're 10 years old, and/or are
> dumber
> than  bricks. We can handle the truth, really.
> -  Robin
>
>
> Robin -- Sorry my post set you off.  It's not about you or newbies,  its
> about birds and about someone who is dispensing advice as  an expert. Over
> the
> years this list has chronicled people who  pushed the envelope and
> tragically
> lose birds.  They're brave people  and took risks to learn things.  Joe is
> making
> a lot of bold statements  that counter what some of those people and most
> successful fliers have  found.  I just think Joe needs to be pinned down a
> little
> in his opinions  so everyone, newbies and oldbies, can be clear in what he
> is
> recommending.   If we can cut through the razzle dazzle, I  have my doubts
>
> that Joe will actually go on record recommending to  1000 plus listers
> that
> late bloomers can/should be flown outside.  I'm  asking for a Yes/No from
> him and
> not a 20 page treatise that in the end is so  complicated that its
> noncommittal. Whats so hard about that?
>
> What do you say, Joe?
>
> Jim  Dawson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
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>    on the web.
>
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>

--
Elizabeth McCullough & 'Dini
Http://www.Talieson.com
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons; for ye be crunchy and good with
ketchup.